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My Sleeved Barrel Project

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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby Shepard » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:21 am

I remember seeing some early TTI pictures. In one of there shop photos was a lathe shot of them turning down a barrel to a standard diameter. It looks more of a inner tube torqued between two supports. [outside tube] The media that I would use would be German Blackhead Aluminum Powder. 3-5 Micron diameter -- mixed into a high heat epoxy binder. The only way to find out what TTI uses inside is to cut one open and find out. I love to know what the secret sauce is.
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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby TheJoe » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:20 am

You can see the patent drawings and information, they don't tell all, but can give you some ideas. patents.google.com
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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby Russian Reloads » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:04 am

Well everybody keeps on thinking Aluminum.....why Aluminum? Also people keep on thinking epoxy which was my first line of thinking. I know from working in Aviation for over 30 years that an epoxy resin will actually act more as an insulation than it will to benefit to wick away the heat. Also epoxy is flexible which can actually allow the barrel to still have some kind of harmonics from within the barrel with minor flexing. You need something basically set in stone. Also from watching their videos they have one where they are using a blow torch on a cut section of their barrel and I can tell you if it was an epoxy that it would be melting and basically burning off at that point so that eliminates epoxy. Their patent says cement and if you look at what their cement properties are it could point to more than a few things. One being a portland cement. But if you look at the strength of just a portland cement with no aggregate in it then it is pretty weak. But a cement such as a portland would allow you to heat it to a very high degree before it even begins to break down. So thats where you need to be looking as far as a medium. I am in the middle of a build of a shrouded barrel as well for my M44. I am putting my money on a cement and a COPPER base. Copper has 4 times the ability to wisk away heat than does aluminum. That is why the best radiators as well as the most efficient heating and cooling systems use copper for their cores. I am looking at using something that can be viscous and pourable into even small grooves. A Regular portland cement would have trouble in the pouring department and would have to be watered down far too much for it to properly set up. I used to do some metal casting for some small parts and jewelery with molten lead and aluminum as well as some other metals. We would make the mold from Plaster of Paris. Plaster of Paris will set up VERY hard and it also will wick away heat to a smaller degree. Now when you add something then like a fine mesh copper powder it also acts as an aggregate as well as a heat sink. I will be doing a thread on this soon as I have been shooting many images of the process. If you want copper powder it is very easy to get just look for it in ebay. I will be doing my pour on my shrouded barrel tonight and will keep everybody updated.
Dont throw out your Berdan primed cartridges they can be reloaded.....go to www.russianreloads.com to see how.
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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby Marauder 1 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:23 am

Well I've been working with TTI since my first build, I remember a conversation with Mark Roth at TTI and he had told me that the stuff they use to wick the heat out of the barrels was VERY expensive. I don't believe cement is the answer because of the units I own. Cement does not transfer heat very well on it's own, in fact it's more of an insulator. I don't think it's an epoxy per say. I've seen TTI demo a straight jacket in full auto mode on another type rifle, the barrel was smoking hot, if it were an epoxy it would first need to be highly conductive and have extremely high tolerance to heat. Most epoxies can withstand heat for a while but they eventually become brittle and break down. Ceramic on the other hand is a very good heat conductive material, they use ceramic in heat sink past for computers. It can also withstand very high temperatures in the proper configuration, (aka space shuttle heat shield). You might want to look at a material called Aluminum Nitride (AlN)

Here is a link

According to some of the information I've been reading on this material it can be used straight or mixed with other powders. So imagine your barrel filled with this (AiN) and compacted then sealed. It is non reactive with ferrous materials and has an extremely high heat tolerance. Because it's a powder no air bubbles to worry about that could create uneven heating patterns, no messy catalyst to mix etc. I don't know if this is what they actually use but it sure is interesting material that seems to more than adequately fill the bill. Something to consider.

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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby Russian Reloads » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:20 am

Yea I have been researching many things that wisk away heat I have done lots of distilling and I can tell you that copper is by far better than aluminum for transferring heat and cold but not retain it. I need something that will set up hard so it will reduce vibrations like a stone type of a material. Epoxies are too easily damaged by heat and they also have a slight flexibility to them. I have finally come up with a mixture of half copper powder and half plaster mix and it sets up well and really transfers the heat. I used a blow torch on one side of it and it quickly soaked up the heat from the one side and the other side I was heating it on quickly became cool as it dissapated into the other bit of the mixture. It did not hold the heat like most metals yet it quickly let it go Im running a second experiment on another batch this morning and seeing how well it sucks it from a metal rod that is embedded into it. It may not be the same thing they are using but there are a number of ways to accomplish the same thing. I cant picture myself running this barrel at full auto so it just has to be good enough to wick away the heat rapidly
Dont throw out your Berdan primed cartridges they can be reloaded.....go to www.russianreloads.com to see how.
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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby Marauder 1 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:15 am

Interesting data, I would think plaster might be sensitive to shock however, recoil might introduce small cracks which might diminish the ability for the material to wick properly.
I found this info on mixtures.

Plaster can withstand heat, but in order to get decent results it needs to be really dry. And really dry means not just air dry. You probably would have to put the mold into an oven. Start out with less the boiling temperature of water. When you think it is dry (the time will depend on the size of the mold) heat it up to maybe 300-400F to make absolutely sure no water is in there. Be careful when you get it out of the oven not to burn yourself. Ideally you would pour the metal into the mold while the mold is still warm.
If you mix silica sand into the plaster it will get a bit more sturdy. Actually a mix of silica sand and plaster (e.g. 1:1) is used for molds for metal casting, even for metals which get much hotter than lead.


Also most plaster is water based and it could create a layer of oxidation between the barrel and plaster. That after time could cause an issue with pitting. Perhaps pre-treating the barrel with something like stove black Lehman's Stove Blackwould prevent rust from forming at the interface between plaster and metal. I've used stove black on automotive parts for years the stuff withstands a ton of heat and has a nice black finish. In fact I've been thinking of trying it in place of bluing in some rifle parts.

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Mark
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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby Russian Reloads » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:39 am

Yea Mark I was thinking about that a while back and ended up using a high temp black paint on the barrel before the shrouding so I didn't deal with any kind of moisture build up in it. I have also started to re think the Plaster of Paris for something stronger which is Hydro-stone. It is actually a mixture of plaster of Paris and a Portland cement that is much harder and durable. I am about to run out and get me some. I have used it in the past and it gets VERY hard so that might just do the trick because regular Plaster of Paris doesn't have that strong of a bond. It is still pourable as people use it to pour into molds and all kinds of things. That with the mixture of the powdered copper should fit the bill.
Dont throw out your Berdan primed cartridges they can be reloaded.....go to www.russianreloads.com to see how.
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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby Marauder 1 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:32 pm

Keep us posted, sounds like a fun experiment. Be safe.

Mark
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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby TheJoe » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:45 am

My project was fast, budget, and relatively lightweight. I'm not sure how much time and money I would put into sleeving a barrel, especially on a questionable bore. I probably wouldn't do this project again.

I really don't get the teludyne thing, you could have a heavy .308 barrel put on your action for that price and dictate every detail.

Update:
I am getting around 1 MOA with PPU Match. I've shot a lot of sub 3/4 MOA groups but I always seem to get one flier.

I'm hoping the groups tighten when I start loading. The bore is .312, the PPU ammo is .310 and I'm going to start out loading .311's.

I'm consistently hitting an 8" square plate at 500 yards with factory ammo that is pretty affordable so I'm happy with it overall for the time and money I have in it, but hopefully it will improve.
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Re: My Sleeved Barrel Project

Postby Shepard » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:33 am

Because of the lack of suitable .311 target bullets I manufacture bull barrels in 2 sizes. .311 for the guy who doesn't reload and .308 for the guy who wants to experience the full potential of what a Mosin is capable of.
Very cool idea no pun intended. I've followed TTI sense close to the beginning when a straight jacket for a Mosin was 349.99. My issue with the whole idea is --- if you have an oversize bore to start with, how will all this process help increase your accuracy? I've been doing the bull barrel thing for a long time and can say that of the people who have a straight jacket -- none have professed the results of a good heavy barrel. And it cost way less.
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